[Ailist] FW: Devaluing by valuing Re: What is the Life Force(Vital energy/Prana) ofBusiness?

Wed Nov 11 08:46:06 MST 2009

Hi Harry,

I agree the vast majority of people don't INTEND to do wrong. In my
experiences around the world I generally find that most people simply want
to be secure and have their contribution valued and recognized by someone
else. Sometimes we are unaware of the effect of our course of action,
sometimes we make a bad choice. As a teenager did I ever get up and pretend
to be sick to skip school for a day? Did I drink too much alcohol? Without
getting into a very long discussion about how we form our notions of right
and wrong and defining what those words mean maybe my point is better
explained in terms of what drivers exist for us to make a decision.

If I meet person A and have almost no information about them I will act
politely because that is my cultural 'norm' of the right thing to do. If I
know that they are a persistent criminal, sell illegal drugs and curse with
every other word I may well go out of my way to avoid them (that person did
get up in the morning with the intent of selling illegal drugs which I would
consider wrong but clearly they don't).

The more information we have that we consider viable the more it sways us
toward reasoning based on that information and away from a 'natural'
reaction. That's not 'wrong' that's just how we are wired. 

It's nice to make decisions on fact because we only have to consider the
facts that we have. It's not necessarily any intention to do wrong it's just
what we as humans tend to do that. If the data tells us it's the right
decision then surely it is. Good data comes first if we're going to make all
our decisions based on data. Is it 'right' or rather  valid to come up with
an idea that we believe is right and then seek out only that data that
proves that we are and ignore other possibilities or conflicting data? 

I believe there is a great danger in quantifying things that are tenuously
measureable. Mainly because we believe that measurables generate predictable
outcomes. They provide location and direction for our actions. What is their
value with regard to complex, dynamic systems that are not predicable? Ai in
itself does not rely on measurement (and that is it's strength and
attraction) it equally cannot generate an exact predetermined outcome (it
would e much easier to sell to business leaders if it could). What it does
do is give us a sense of who and where we are and what our purpose is and
generate ideas to elevate those to higher levels. The only predictability is
that some form of positive outcome is likely to be realized.

Of course I could be wrong about that

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Bury [mailto:HBury at bw.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:39 AM
To: Roger Davies; ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: RE: [Ailist] FW: Devaluing by valuing Re: What is the Life
Force(Vital energy/Prana) ofBusiness?

Dear Roger,

With all due respect, Roger, I do not believe people intend to "do wrong"
with the intention of hiding it behind "measurements and systems."

Rather, I believe everyone intends to "do right" and then seek to prove
their "rightness" with "measurements and sysrems."

I never met anyone who gets up in the morning with the intention to "do
wrong." 
Have you?

Many do wrong in my eyes because they and I have different value systems, it
appears to me.

Hence, it gets back to basic questions as Sachin suggests. What do we mean
by "the good?"

Appreciatively Yours,
Harry J. Bury
Chair, Doctoral Program in Business Administration (DBA) Graduate School of
Commerce, Burapha University Silom, Bangkok 10500 Thailand AND Professor
Emeritus Baldwin Wallace College Berea, OH  44017 USA
440-826-2395 Office
440-336-2801 Mobile
Explore Dr. Bury's website http://homepages.bw.edu/~hbury
________________________________________
From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu
[ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Davies
[rdavies at rtpcompany.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:34 PM
To: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: [Ailist] FW: Devaluing by valuing Re: What is the Life Force
(Vital  energy/Prana)   ofBusiness?

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Davies [mailto:rdavies at rtpcompany.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:33 AM
To: 'Cheri Torres'; 'Lionel Boxer'
Cc: 'bruce at bruceelkin.com'; 'coachpb at comcast.net'; 'mail at sachinchavan.com'
Subject: RE: [Ailist] Devaluing by valuing Re: What is the Life Force (Vital
energy/Prana) ofBusiness?

Hi Cheri,

I believe that is exactly the trap we fall into because we do not have good
enough definitions of the words that we all use. True, money is the
lifeblood of trade and as you correctly say is not its purpose. Measurement
is also vital because without it we have no idea where we are and where we
are headed. It would be wrong to assume that measurements necessarily lead
to accurate prediction in dynamic, complex systems like the environment and
the stock exchange.

Where the trap lies is that it is not necessary to put a 'significant price'
on the value of the environment to know that polluting it is not a good
thing to do. Especially since we cannot predict how it will react. What we
are doing is putting a price onto a moral issue. If we do so we can then
equate the cost of remediation to the cost of the damage done and if the
cost of remediation is too high we won't do it even though we know we
should. We then get into an argument about the true cost of the
environmental damage (which is virtually impossible to do) rather than the
value of the environment.

Once we've 'priced (not valued) the environment we will then get into a
system of punitives or incentives the purpose of which is to direct moral
behavior. Are we not human enough to know our own morals and be responsible
for them? It should absolutely not be necessary to incentivize an
organization or individual to look after the environment but in the space of
two paragraphs we're there. To do so admits that we do not already know and
enjoy it's intrinsic worth. Did the native American tribes require
incentives to do so? No they had a moral belief system that already held the
environment as sacred. They would not tell us that they had some fantastic
measurements and an economic system that helped them protect and respect it.

It's okay to be wrong about some things, recognize the fact and do what we
can to change. It's really wrong to know that one is doing wrong and hide
one's complicity behind measurements and systems.

We have some severe environmental damage because we have an imbalanced 'for
profit' driven economic model. The way to change that and many other current
ills is to recognize that we've been wrong and need a new and sustainable
model.

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheri Torres [mailto:cheri.torres at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:21 AM
To: Lionel Boxer
Cc: bruce at bruceelkin.com; coachpb at comcast.net;
ailist at lists.business.utah.edu; rdavies at rtpcompany.com;
mail at sachinchavan.com
Subject: Re: [Ailist] Devaluing by valuing Re: What is the Life Force (Vital
energy/Prana) ofBusiness?

To voice the other side, putting a measurable value on that which is
valuable enables an economic system to actually factor in its value into
costs and pricing.  Money and measurement are not the enemy, they are simply
tools.  I believe the fall of our current system is a result of our failing
to realize that money (and measurement )are not the end goals but merely the
means for helping us know if we are adding value and staying aligned with
our broader purposeful goals, respectively.

When people have to pay a significant price to pollute (because we value
clean air) they will seek ways to decrease that cost or eliminate it.  Seems
to me that if we stop making people wrong and instead look at how the system
encourages behavior we can then begin to change the system so that people
naturally choose what is "right"
and "good" (like not polluting).  There is so little purpose in judging and
so much to be gained by pondering what kinds of regulations, costs, and
measures might actually lead us to once again value "all our brothers and
sisters in nature".

Cheri
Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.

Collaborative by Design
135 Westwood Place
Asheville, NC 28806
828-225-5088

On Nov 9, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Lionel Boxer wrote:

> Exactly, but that is what happens.  Accountants create dollar values 
> for everything and now we have carbon trading.  Meaningless 
> measurement that results in something with a money value that will 
> become traded like shares.
>
> Lionel Boxer CD PhD MBA BTech(IndEng) - 0411267256 Associate of RMIT 
> University - lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au Graduate School of Business my 
> "Assessment of Quality Systems with Positioning Theory"
> now in a googe book - see link at http://intergon.net
>>>> "Roger Davies" <rdavies at rtpcompany.com> 10/11/09 10:12 AM >>>
>
> I'm also of a mind that in trying to quantify such things we actually 
> devalue them. There will be indirect, measurable benefits just like we 
> can measure heart rate or blood pressure to tell us about our health.
> Our health
> is much more than a bunch of measurements though. If you did a big 
> study and found that an Appreciative conversation contained x number 
> of y words would that mean that any conversation with that quota of 
> those words would be appreciative? I doubt it. Measurement, though 
> valuable can also be deceiving, especially when one tries to apply it 
> to dynamic systems.
> In many
> , many businesses the output of everyone is reduced to a few 
> measurements and if you don't meet your target you aren't a good 
> enough employee.
> That's
> one way businesses unwittingly act to disengage their workforce.
>
> Roger
>
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