[Ailist] Persons have a basically positive direction - CarlRogers

Thu Nov 5 20:24:54 MST 2009

Roger;

Point of clarification: Military are trained to follow orders whether they
believe in the orders or not.as long as the orders are lawful. Their
training includes doing what is best to carry out those orders. If their
orders are to, for instance, provide relief to civilian populations then
they will do that even if that population is in opposition to them. By that
very act these military persons are doing what is best for the whole, not
just for themselves. They will put themselves "in harm's way" for people who
oppose them if that is what they are ordered to do. If those orders include
building infrastructure; hospitals, schools, roads, etc; then they will do
that. I personally know military people whose missions were to help set-up
civilian governments, not to engage in military actions.

Michael L Schwartz, PE, PMP

President

Positive Concepts, Inc.

Office: 248 828 7701

Fax: 248 828 7708

Cell: 248 318 6070

Email: MSchwartz at PositiveConcepts.biz

Web: www.PositiveConcepts.biz <http://www.positiveconcepts.biz/> 

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellschwartz

Enhancing the positive.

From: Roger Davies [mailto:rdavies at rtpcompany.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:08 AM
To: 'Michael L Schwartz'; 'Lionel Boxer'; ailist at lists.business.utah.edu;
mail at sachinchavan.com
Subject: RE: [Ailist] Persons have a basically positive direction -
CarlRogers

Hi Michael,

Another point of view might be that the military are trained to do what is
best for everyone who happens to share their point of view. By definition
they do not act in the best interests of those they are in opposition to.
Nor do they act to seek alternative solutions other than a military one to
the conflict in which they are engaged.

On the matter of being trained to act for the good of others what about
those in the church who are also trained to do what is better for everyone,
or those in healthcare who dedicate themselves to healing others, or maybe
those in education who also dedicate themselves to sharing their knowledge
for the benefit of others. 

>From another perspective only two sectors of the economy actually take a raw
material and turn it into something more valuable thereby generating
'actual' economic growth. Those are the sectors of agriculture and
manufacturing. Maybe service in those areas should be a pre-condition since
it is only those two sectors that pay for everyone else. 

Maybe the only pre-condition is that you are subject to the laws and
conditions of the society in which you live. Personally I am a permanent
resident in the US and though subject to all the laws and regulations etc of
the society I am not permitted to vote in a US election. Should that be
permitted? I could vote in elections in my native country but since I'm not
subject to the laws and regulations that seems a little unfair and would be
purely politically motivated so I choose not to.

A broad range of views makes for healthy government. One only has to look at
those that are either heavily militarized, religiously biased or for that
matter politically highly polarized to uncover that. It's a long time since
I have read up on this but I believe that to serve in government in ancient
Greece one had to give up ownership and involvement in the private sector.
Now that would be a step forward. Imagine if the only income a politician
could have was that given to them by their constituents. Who's interests
would they then act to best to serve? How much power would a lobbyist have?

I believe that on an individual level it is more a question of motivation
rather than one of training and of course whether or not one has a
collaborative and generative persuasion for problem solving or something
different.

Roger

  _____  

From: Michael L Schwartz [mailto:MSchwartz at PositiveConcepts.biz] 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 2:05 PM
To: 'Roger Davies'; 'Lionel Boxer'; ailist at lists.business.utah.edu;
mail at sachinchavan.com
Subject: RE: [Ailist] Persons have a basically positive direction -
CarlRogers

Roger;

Your comment about "... the temptation for one to make a morally incorrect
choice for the benefit of individual gain..." brought to mind something in
Robert Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers. (Not to be confused with the
movie of the same name, only loosely based on the book.) The novel mentions
that to be a "citizen" and to have the privilege of voting one must have
served in the military. The reason being that being in the military trains
one to do what is best for everyone, not just for self. Now, I don't
necessarily advocate military service as a requirement for voting, but it is
an interesting concept. What about such a requirement for our elected
government representatives? Especially those that have "command authority"
over military units.

Michael L Schwartz, PE, PMP

President

Positive Concepts, Inc.

Office: 248 828 7701

Fax: 248 828 7708

Cell: 248 318 6070

Email: MSchwartz at PositiveConcepts.biz

Web: www.PositiveConcepts.biz

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellschwartz

Enhancing the positive.

-----Original Message-----
From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu
[mailto:ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Davies
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:22 AM
To: 'Lionel Boxer'; ailist at lists.business.utah.edu; mail at sachinchavan.com
Subject: Re: [Ailist] Persons have a basically positive direction -
CarlRogers

Hi Lionel,

Maybe a little 'off topic' but after 15 years of management in industry I

have a very strong feeling about incentives. They are a bad idea and

insidiously undermine employee commitment and alignment. Why? Because they

provide the temptation for one to make a morally incorrect choice for the

benefit of individual gain (or realize individual gain from a choice they

should have made anyway such as an 'attendance bonus'). 

There is a difference between incentive and reward. Rewards are good because

they come after the act attracting them has been performed and the person

receiving them was not aware that they would get a reward for acting the way

that they did. Of course in all cases one must be consistent in their

application.

Ai is the perfect tool to generate alignment within an organization because

alignment stems from compassion. If all members of the organization care

about the work that they do and the well being of each other their

performance, in any way that one cares to measure it, is exemplary. I have

had the benefit of experiencing this and also the unfortunate of experience

of seeing it significantly diminished by the application of the 'one size

fits all' standardization so prevalent in public corporations.

What baffles me is that those very organizations that spend extraordinary

efforts on limiting individuality also desire innovation and wonder why it's

so difficult to realize from their employees. Innovation requires freedom to

think and act outside of the norm.

Roger

-----Original Message-----

From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu

[mailto:ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lionel Boxer

Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:48 PM

To: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu; mail at sachinchavan.com

Subject: Re: [Ailist] Persons have a basically positive direction -

CarlRogers

Yes.  But what are they positive about and is their personal direction

aligned with the organisation?  That alignment is the issue.  People are

positive about their personal goals.  So, incentives offered to employees by

an organisation need to be crafted with that in mind as well as an

employee's ability to manipulate the incentive system to reward themself and

potentially harm the organisation or even break laws.

Lionel Boxer CD PhD MBA BTech(IndEng) - 0411267256 Associate of RMIT

University - lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au Graduate School of Business my

"Assessment of Quality Systems with Positioning Theory" 

now in a googe book - see link at http://intergon.net

>>> "Sachin Chavan" <mail at sachinchavan.com> 27/10/09 1:40 AM >>>

In the background of the latest discussion on positive thinking, financial

crisis etc, here's a passage from Carl Rogers' 'On Becoming a Person':

'There is one deep learning which is perhaps basic to all of the things I

have said thus far. It has been forced upon me by more than twenty-five

years of trying to be helpful to individuals in personal stress. It is

simply this. It has been my experience that persons have a basically

positive direction. In my deepest contact with individuals in therapy, even

those whose troubles are most disturbing, whose behaviour has been most

anti-social, whose feelings seem most abnormal, I find this to e true. When

I can sensitively understand the feelings which they are expressing, when I

am able to accept them as separate persons in their own right, then I find

that they tend to move in certain directions. And what are these directions

in which they tend to move? The words which I believe are most truly

descriptive, are words such as positive, constructive, moving toward

self-actualisation, growing toward maturity, growing toward socialisation, I

have come to feel that the more fully the individual is understood and

accepted, the more he tends to drop the false fronts with which he has been

meeting life, and the more he tends to move in a direction which is forward.

I would not want to be misunderstood on this. I do not have a Pollyanna view

of human nature. I am quite aware that out of defensiveness and inner far

individuals can do behave in ways which are incredibly cruel, horribly

destructive, immature, regressive, anti-social, hurtful. Yet one of the most

refreshing and invigorating parts of my experience is to work with such

individuals and to discover the strongly positive directional tendencies

which exist in them, as in all of us, at the deepest levels.'

Chapter 1 "This is me".  'On Becoming a Person" - Carl Rogers, 1961.

Regards

Sachin

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_______________________________________________

The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles

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administrator. For subscription information, go to:

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_______________________________________________

The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles
School of Business at the University of Utah. Jack Brittain is the list
administrator. For subscription information, go to:

http://mailman.business.utah.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/ailist