[Ailist] The Zietgeist Movement and Venus Project
Roger Davies
rdavies at rtpcompany.com
Mon Mar 23 07:56:03 MST 2009
Hi Cheri, Lionel
I think you are both accurate in what you say. It helps me to draw a
distinction between a 'system' and an 'organization' in that a 'system' is
predominantly mechanical, dead and designed. It is supposed to react in a
predetermined way to predetermined stimuli. They can be very complex but
never lose these essential qualities.
An 'organization' on the other hand is dynamic, ever changing, continually
re-creating itself and can exhibit many different responses to the same
stimuli.
The key difference is that an 'organization' has a conscious will (and by
extension each member of it does too). In that respect a 'system' cannot
govern a collection of conscious beings for any length of time. It can focus
attention for short time and if supported by enough members can direct a
large amount of effort. But a system is a system and it cannot deal with
multiple possible outputs to the same input. This is precisely why no-one
knows how to control an economy. If you really think about it, every time we
try and fix something in the world order we generally generate more than one
problem for every solution that we put in place.
Some things are generally held as right or wrong. I think one of our current
problems is that we draw that distinction arbitrarily and far too often. We
also do the same when considering things as mutually exclusive. Many, many
times competing view points are not mutually exclusive and can and need to
co-exist.
Change takes a willingness to see a 'better' alternative. Of course 'better'
can mean different things to different people. People act when they take in
a piece of information, process it in the light of their experience and
decide whether or not to act and how to act. So two things are key.
1) We have to be educated in sound experience ( a sound philosophy )in order
to be able to make 'better' judgments
2) We have to be willing to accept that we may have been wrong.
I maybe should have put those two the other way around. Whilst I am a little
skeptical of the Venus Project I believe there is a need to revisit how we
use and consume resources and the current economic model of growth at all
costs. Are we in our current economic crisis because we have treated credit
like many other raw materials; as if we have an endless supply? It's a
fairly simple argument that economic growth cannot go unlimited but
sustainability can.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu
[mailto:ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Cheri Torres
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:26 PM
To: Lionel Boxer
Cc: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Ailist] The Zietgeist Movement and Venus Project
Lionel,
I am of a different opinion when it comes to change and what it takes. I'm
also open to diverse motivations for how and why people do what they do.
Currently, I am a strong believer in systems and that people do not act
independent from the system in which they live and work. Sometimes
systems--which at the outset seem like they are well structured to support
growth and achievement--can peak and become destructive, as people are
driven and motivated by their desire to "win". Change the system...and
people change.
My experience is that painting situations and actions as right and wrong
polarizes and often inhibits people from working together to create change.
The judgment, hostility/rage, and antagonism of radical activism may get
people to pay attention to something, but it often generates defensiveness,
positioning, and escalating violence from both sides.
Cheri
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Lionel Boxer
<lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au>wrote:
> Thanks Cheri
>
> We have to use discourse to change the status quo if it is wrong.
> Radical activism is necessary to make people aware of the need to
> change if change is necessary - I believe that the quiet approach does not
work. Why?
> People think they have the right to abuse society and the environment
> to optimise their personal situation.
>
> I think Appreciative Inquiry is a radical approach. It is confronting.
> That is, it challenges people to focus on the appreciative and not
> frame things in deficit terms. My clients have told me that it was a
> radical and confronting approach at first, but then they realised that
> they did not have the right to frame things in deficit terms. The
> point is, it was radical and confronting - I challenged them.
>
> It is important to clarify that radial activism does not mean
> violence, but it does require that people are challenged by
> confronting approaches. For example, Australian public service
> announcements to stop people drinking and driving have included
> graphic television advertisements that involve images o people who
> have been ripped apart in car accidents apparently caused by excessing
> alcohol consumption. Similar advertisements are currently being shown
> in Australia to help motorcycle riders realise that they need to wear
> protective leather suits or they will have horrific injuries to their legs
arms and buttocks (they have some really good makeup artists).
>
> Many people do think they have the right to take advantage of other
> people and the environment. For example, watch "The Smartest Guys in the
Room"
> about Enron. They all believed that they had the right to disrupt
> society (for example driving up the price of electricity in certain
> parts of the USA and causing blackouts in other parts of the USA) in
> order to achieve their personal incentive payment objectives. What
> about the people who set up investment business based on lies about
> the returns from their investment management? These people really
> thought they had the right to engage in these lies and corruption!
>
> In Australia, the emissions trading scheme is being undermined and
> diluted by Australian's desire to maintain their standard of living by
> raping the environment. Likewise, many Australians insist on driving
> excessively large
> 4 wheel drives and living in outrageously large homes with
> airconditioning on far too high.
>
> People will not wake up by gentle persuation. The Shell situation
> demonstrated this. The Board of Shell was happy to sink defunct oil
> drilling rigs in the North Sea and kill Nigerians who opposed their
> oil production operations in Nigeria (this is well documented in the
> press at the time). It was not until radical activists such as John
> Elkington (see his business www.SustainAbility.com and note the
> testimonial from the CEO of Shell on that website) obstructed sales of
> petrol from Shell service stations around Europe by stopping cars from
> entering Shell serivice stations that the Board of Shell took any notice.
>
> Of course, we are all too nice to be radical activists (including me).
> So, humanity will suffer the consequences of our lack of appropriate
action.
> Cause and effect - aka scientific method.
>
> My approach is to help people to realise that they do not have the
> right to engage in these actions (sometimes I have to be cruel). If
> they really get it (in the way that Ray Andersen, the Chairman of
> Interface Carpet did) we may see some changes. However, most people
choose to ignore my approach.
> It is easier (and somehow more profitable for policy makers,
> accountants and lawyers) to establish a new market in which we trade
> carbon as a sort of commodity. This is what the Australian Minister
> for the Climate Change - Senator Penny Wong - said last night on
> Australian national television. In other words, the Australia
> government has sold out to powerful lobbyists, who think they have the
> right to abuse society and the environment in order to improve their
> personal position. There is nothing at all challenging about a carbon
trading scheme - it is an easy way out.
>
> So, I agree with the Zietgeist Movement - I just think it needs to be
> radical in its implementation.
>
> Certainly, once people are ready to listen an appreciative approach
> can be taken. However, until they have been confronted somehow they
> will not realise that the rights they have assumed for themselves are
wrong.
>
> Perhaps I have my thoughts clouded by current events in Australia and
> have misinterpreted the paper and your comments. Sorry if that is the
case.
>
> Lionel Boxer CD PhD MBA BTech(IndEng) - 0411267256 Associate of RMIT
> University - lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au Graduate School of Business my
> "Assessment of Quality Systems with Positioning Theory"
> now in a googe book - see link at http://intergon.net
> >>> Cheri Torres <cheri.torres at gmail.com> 11/03/09 8:29 AM >>>
> Lionel,
> Not sure how I see the connection between what you have written below
> and the book I forwarded. Can you make it more clear.
>
> Thanks,
> Cheri
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Lionel Boxer
> <lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au
> >wrote:
>
> > Cheri knows Rom Harre. His 1999 book (Greenspeak: A study of
> environmental
> > discourse), uses the term ZEITGEIST on page 11 (see my reference to
this:
> > http://intergon.net/phd/phdch2.doc). I do not recall if that book
> > got into the "THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT", but the term ZEITGEIST was
> > used in the context of environmental discourse.
> >
> > In http://intergon.net/phd/phdch3.doc I discussed how activist
> > movements initiated a great deal of the triple bottom line /
> > sustainability
> behaviours
> > we see today. For example, John Elkington was originally an
> > activist applying pressure to Shell. He is now a prime consultant
> > to the Shell
> board
> > and other significant international businesses. For example, I saw
> > an
> email
> > from the CEO of Shell Jac Nassur about a meeting he had with John
> Elkington
> > and the CEO of British Petrolium.
> >
> > We study order in AI. A little focused anarchy goes along way
> > towards realigning the status quo by disrupting what needs to be
disrupted.
> >
> > Lionel Boxer CD PhD MBA BTech(IndEng) - 0411267256 Associate of RMIT
> > University - lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au Graduate School of Business my
> > "Assessment of Quality Systems with Positioning Theory"
> > now in a googe book - see link at http://intergon.net
> > >>> Cheri Torres <cheri.torres at gmail.com> 11/03/09 5:20 AM >>>
> > I've just learned about the Venus Project and would like to
> > encourage everyone to look into it. I'm attaching a short book that
> > offers an incredible pathway forward. With our monetry-based economy
> > about to collapse, this is an opportunity to step into a
> > resource-based economy of abundance, joy, peace, and enough for
> > everyone. The world in which AI is the norm!!
> > Please take the time to read through this, check on the project and
> > consider how you and the work you do might support our moving
> > towards this before
> it
> > all ends in tears!
> >
> > An interview with Jacques Fresco
> >
> >
> http://magazine.chictoday.com/issue023/therealityoffantasy/therealityo
> ffantasy.php
> >
> > The Venus Project Website:
> > http://www.thevenusproject.com
> >
> > If anyone is already involved, I would appreciate hearing what you
> > are doing and how it is going.
> > Thanks,
> > Cheri
> > --
> > Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
> > Collaborative-by-Design
> > Asheville, NC
> > 828-225-5088
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
> Collaborative-by-Design
> Asheville, NC
> 828-225-5088
> _______________________________________________
> The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles
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>
--
Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
Collaborative-by-Design
Asheville, NC
828-225-5088
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