[Ailist] Changing Military Perspective

Wed Jun 24 06:26:35 MDT 2009

Chris,
I love this conversation!  So, what's popping up for me is (a) do I not
understand the meaning of infantry or (b) was my communication understood to
mean that there would be no more killing, in which case I was misunderstood.

My understanding of the infantry is that they are trained to hunt down the
enemy and capture, kill or immobilize them.  They take their lead, however,
from authority that gives them orders about where and when they can do this.
 It seems to me that the shift in McCrystal's vision simply provides new
boundaries about where and when they can do this.  It is not asking them to
change their role.

If my comments were interpreted as implying that we should not have a
traditional infantry or that McCrystal was suggesting that, I should have
been more clear. Killing, capturing and mobilizing is still a goal, but it
now falls within a broader vision--which has the potential to change ALOT!

Here's what it appears McCrystal has done (from my frame):

   - "lower" vision: search and destroy the enemy at all costs
   - resultant problem: civilians are dying, alienating them from us and
   driving them into the hands of the enemy (and incidentally, we really don't
   want to kill civilians, it runs counter to our country's ethics)
   - Step back and ask: what is the "higher" outcome we are after?
   - Answer: long term environment where civilians are safe from violence
   (of any kind)
   - Solution: subsume the lower vision to the higher vision; don't
   sacrifice the higher, ethical outcome and say it justifies

Does this make sense? Am I responding to what you and Lionel are saying?

Cheri

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Christopher Dennis
<chris.dennis at shaw.ca>wrote:

> Cheri,
>
> I am afraid you touched a raw nerve with your comment!  An infantryman is
> trained to survive in battle and to kill the enemy whomever that is.  Think
> of the film "They Were Soldiers" with Mel Gibson playing the role of Hal
> Moore, the colonel in charge of the group heading into central Vietnam.
> The orders were: "simple orders, Hal, find the enemy and kill him".
>
> Police are the people trained to work with community.  If you were to
> cross-train the infantry in police techniques, I could go with your comment.
>  As it stands, it is akin to me suggesting that the traditional command and
> control executive could be successful with Ai if you defined Ai differently!
>  That, of course, is a fundamental shift in perception of Ai.  Could that
> work?
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 23-Jun-09, at 7:16 PM, Cheri Torres wrote:
>
>  Lionel,
>> Perhaps that is only one definition of the infantry.
>>
>>
>> Cheri
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Lionel Boxer <lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  When you read my post please keep in mind that the mission of the
>>> infantry
>>> is to seek out and destoy the enemy.
>>>
>>> Soldiers are soldiers and they have a job to do.  If you change soldiers
>>> you may change the operational effectiveness and their capability to do
>>> their job.  With that in mind and in consideration of the thread of this
>>> discussion, my belief is that it would be more appropriate to change
>>> politicians and businessmen so that we can stop war.
>>>
>>> If war happens we need soldiers to be able to do their job and not be
>>> confused by a set of rules crafted from the peace of a warless centre of
>>> thought.
>>>
>>> Special Forces tend to be capable of "work with the local townspeople and
>>> help them" - this is because they are selected from the best of the army.
>>> The regular army has a much broader range of capability and includes many
>>> people - even in the highest level of command (which can be populated by
>>> the
>>> politically astute, overly ambitious, and intellectually limited) - who
>>> are
>>> not capable of thinking in these terms.  Hence, it is best to keep the
>>> military out of conflict unless absolutely necessary.
>>>
>>> Remember, the mission of the infantry is to seek out and destoy the
>>> enemy.
>>>
>>> Lionel Boxer CD PhD MBA BTech(IndEng) - 0411267256
>>> Associate of RMIT University - lionel.boxer at rmit.edu.au
>>> Graduate School of Business
>>> my "Assessment of Quality Systems with Positioning Theory"
>>> now in a googe book - see link at http://intergon.net
>>>
>>>> <crightmer116995mi at comcast.net> 24/06/09 2:05 AM >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Cheri;
>>>
>>> I just finished reading an interesting book on Afghanistan the early days
>>> of the conflict. The title of the book is Horse Soldiers by Doug Stanton
>>> and
>>> it details the actions of the special forces soldiers that were the first
>>> ones on the ground after 9/11. Part of the special forces doctrine is to
>>> work with the local townspeople and help them defeat the Taliban. The war
>>> had been going on for years and these soldiers help the locals defeat the
>>> Taliban and regain their country. This type of action actually had more
>>> success than when the regular army and marines arrived. It is an
>>> interesting
>>> book and I recommend it highly.
>>>
>>> Interesting the change in measurement only time will tell if it is
>>> successful.
>>>
>>> Jeff Rightmer
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cheri Torres" <cheri.torres at gmail.com>
>>> To: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:46:15 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>> Subject: [Ailist] Changing Military Perspective
>>>
>>> I noticed today in the news that McCrystal has shifted the metrics in
>>> Afghanistan from measuring # of militants killed, to # of civilians safe
>>> from violence (which I take to mean violence in body, mind, and spirit
>>> from
>>> any source). What a different set of possibilities and options for going
>>> forward emerge from such a simple shift in metrics. This shift in
>>> perspective caused an immediate directive to avoid fighting in areas
>>> where
>>> people live.
>>> Subtle shifts have the potential to cause tidal waves. Kudos to our
>>> military; may they discover a world of possibilities for generating
>>> safety!
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
>>> Collaborative-by-Design
>>> Asheville, NC
>>> 828-225-5088
>>>
>>> * * *
>>> This communication and its attachments are confidential and may be
>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately
>>> notify
>>> the sender and then delete this communication and its attachments without
>>> reading it or forwarding it.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles
>>> School of Business at the University of Utah. Jack Brittain is the list
>>> administrator. For subscription information, go to:
>>> http://mailman.business.utah.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/ailist
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles
>>> School of Business at the University of Utah. Jack Brittain is the list
>>> administrator. For subscription information, go to:
>>> http://mailman.business.utah.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/ailist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
>> Collaborative-by-Design
>> Asheville, NC
>> 828-225-5088
>>
>> * * *
>> This communication and its attachments are confidential and may be
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately
>> notify
>> the sender and then delete this communication and its attachments without
>> reading it or forwarding it.
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Appreciative Inquiry Discussion List is hosted by the David Eccles
>> School of Business at the University of Utah. Jack Brittain is the list
>> administrator. For subscription information, go to:
>> http://mailman.business.utah.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/ailist
>>
>
>

-- 
Cheri B. Torres, Ph.D.
Collaborative-by-Design
Asheville, NC
828-225-5088

* * *
This communication and its attachments are confidential and may be
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify
the sender and then delete this communication and its attachments without
reading it or forwarding it.