[Ailist] Positive /Generative

Fri Dec 14 08:37:58 MST 2007

HI Cheri,

Nice thought. When I was thinking about the nature of problem solving One
thread took me down the route of whther having and 'scientific' based
eductation versus and 'artistic' one would make a difference to he choice. I
soon reqlized that this was far too naïve. Great artists and great
scientists are equally analytical, critical and appreciative of their
creations and the world around them. They may 'achieve' in different ways
but they share something special. 

I think that you make an important point. What they share is the desire to
generate something new, to create. I expect it is possible to be positive
but not generative. If my vision of the future is more of the same positive
world that I have today I guess I'm not likely to be generative in my
thinking. However I would also argue that one can be negatively generative
also destructive is the flip side of creative. Is it therefore possible
replace the word positive with generative? Maybe their shuld be a more
emphatic connection between the two. I'm not certain about a direct
replacement

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheri Torres [mailto:cheri at mobileteamchallenge.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:02 AM
To: jane at appreciativeinquiryunlimited.com; 'Marvin Faure'; 'Siegel, Steve';
'Roger Davies'; 'Kat Morgan'; 'Robyn Stratton-Berkessel'
Cc: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: RE: [Ailist] Positive /Generative

Tangentially related to this conversation is a question I have related to
"positive" vs "generative".  I wonder whether we could replace the word
"positive" everywhere it appears in the Ai literature with "generative" and
thereby dissolve the dichotomy.  For example, The 5ht AI Principle: Instead
of Positive Principle, what if it becomes the Generative Pricicple--the more
generative the question ...

Does this work?

Cheri

-----Original Message-----
From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu
[mailto:ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Jane Magruder
Watkins
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:43 AM
To: 'Marvin Faure'; 'Siegel, Steve'; 'Roger Davies'; 'Kat Morgan'; 'Robyn
Stratton-Berkessel'
Cc: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: RE: [Ailist] RE: Lean and AI

Dear Marvin, Steve, et al: 

If we move into wholeness, it takes the need for dichotomy out of the
equation. As you said, problem solving and AI describe identical situations
- How do we fix this? How do we make this better? How do we see the
opportunity in every situation? In other words, how do we "construct" our
world? As I say when I teach, we are experiencing an emerging paradigm that
makes whole the notions we in the West have about either/or and the notions
of the East about "all of the above" so to speak. 

I also say that if you are building a bridge, you darn well want to use
Newtonian mechanics! Triangles are imminently important. In human systems,
such mechanical ideas don't work so well -- as we are starting to understand
after centuries of trying to make human organizations (particularly the big
ones) work like machines! 

So my guess is that your notion of using either problem solving or AI can
actually be a simple AI questions -- what's working well here? If what's
working well is mechanical in nature, so be it! 

I think the conundrum we find ourselves in so often is that thing Plato
stuck us with -- that somewhere out there, there is the perfect tree, and
all the rest are somehow inferior. It's beginning to look like everything is
in constant growth and change and shift and so on, so that data is good for
about a nano-second and we consultants find ourselves in the business of
teaching systems and people in systems to invent ways of embracing constant
and discontinuous change so that whatever happens the system is agile
enough, informed enough and cares enough to invent the next step on the spot
given the best information available in the moment -- knowing that the next
moment may present a very different reality. Or, perhaps I should say, a
very different construction of reality!

I'd love to hear how the research goes and what you learn. These are
important issues for us to explore.

Appreciatively, Jane 

Jane Magruder Watkins & Ralph Kelly
Appreciative Inquiry Unlimited
An Organization Development Center for Teaching, Consulting and Mentoring

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-----Original Message-----
From: ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu
[mailto:ailist-bounces at lists.business.utah.edu] On Behalf Of 'Marvin Faure'
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:18 AM
To: 'Siegel, Steve'; 'Roger Davies'; 'Kat Morgan'; 'Robyn
Stratton-Berkessel'
Cc: ailist at lists.business.utah.edu
Subject: [Ailist] RE: Lean and AI

Steve,

I was interested to see your post that you are doing research in AI and
problem-solving. 

It seems to me that the starting point for AI and for problem-solving is the
same: a situation that is at some level unsatisfactory. At one end of the
scale it is clearly a problem, at the other end it is an opportunity to do
or to "be" better (which is easily transformed into a problem to solve).

The two approaches diverge, of course, as soon as the starting point and
focus for the project have been identified. 

Taking a practical consultant's standpoint (at the risk of sounding
heretical) I think that while there are many situations where better results
will be obtained through AI, there are certain situations that might lend
themselves better either to "pure" problem-solving or to a blended approach
that uses tools from both. Optimising manufacturing processes may be one of
these areas.

It would be wonderful if you were able to set up some really rigorous
research to identify the conditions most favourable to each approach. I'm
not aware of any such research already out there but asking this list is
probably a good place to start!

I'd be very pleased to exchange ideas on this topic as you proceed with your
research.

Kind regards,

Marvin

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